Here we go again, Jordan or Kobe?
Posted on 31. May, 2010 at 4:41 am by Goodplaye in Basketball, LeBron James, Los Angeles Lakers, NBA Basketball
I’ve been pretty much the only one to even consider taking the side of Kobe for this argument but its still a fun one to have. The fact that Kobe and the Lakers are back in the finals can only help me. While I do have to admit that if Kobe were no to never play again, Jordan would without question be the best of all time. For years now I’ve been convinced that Kobe will be (or should be) considered the same thing. Watching the clinching game 6 of the western conference finals was amazing. Kobe hit shot after shot down the stretch and each one was more difficult than the one before. It reminded me of something Jordan used to do so I figured why not bring this old comparison back.
Even though showing the career stats is not going to benefit my side (kobe), I’m still going to post them here (Jordan) and here(kobe). 
When looking at these stats keep in mind that Bryant is only 31 years old and should still have a few very good years left in him. After a  potential 5th title by the age of 31, I bet I won’t be the only one that likes Kobe in this battle.
One thing I do have to admit is that Jordan is the man. Cruising around on the internet and looking at all the old pictures and quotes from him is epic. These days all we ever see is the Lebron, Wade, Bryant, Howard, and Durant highlights. Just looking at a picture like this one of Jordan is fucking awesome. Could also throw guys like Drexler and Dominique in the same category. Those dudes were doing things that nobody had ever seen before and it was sick nasty.
Tom
31. May, 2010
Jordan was the best by far. You forget he took a year or so off to try his hand at baseball? Jordan never had a great supporting cast as Kobe has always had. Pippen was a great player, but Jordan never had a big man like the Diesel. Rodman was a great defender, and rebounder, but Artest is a great defender and can score. Horace Grant was a solid player, but he was no Lamar odam. I don’t think Jordan has had nearly the help Kobe has. Also, Jordan played in the era of great ball players, Kobe plays in the era of great athletes. Kobe never had/has to deal with teams like the Knicks and the Pistons that beat the hell out of him game in and game out, not to mention the Pacers and Reggie Miller. The game is so ticky tack now, I am shocked when fouls aren’t called every time down the floor. Jordan never lost a finals series, Kobe has lost 2. Kobe only has 1 title sans shaq. Kobe is a great player, don’t get me wrong, but he isn’t in the same class as Jordan, no one is.
3d
31. May, 2010
Jordan wins the eye test, hands down. Not sure I even need to go into that. But I’m not sure he wins the GOAT via the logic test.
First off, Tom, were you saying that Artest is better than Rodman? 7 rebounding titles, 2 Defensive POYs and 7 1st all defense. What part of Artest is better? Because he could score when he played in Houston? Or because he could score in one playoff game this entire post season?
You’re right, Pippen was no Shaq. Kobe has one title without Shaq, Jordan has 0 titles without Pippen, also a hall of famer. And lock down defender.
Those big bad Knicks really gave Jordan problems. Yeah, the same Knicks who gave the Rockets problems, and the Spurs problems….The Knicks biggest rival in the 90s was the Heat – in the 2nd round of the playoffs. Because the Knicks were ALLOWED to throw punches doesn’t make them a tougher opponent. The Bulls were ALLOWED to do the same thing.
Who else did Jordan take down? Barkley who made it to one NBA finals? The Jazz seemed like a great team, but wtf are they only making 2 NBA finals in a lesser conference if they’re so great? Sonics? I think we can all agree Kemp was worthless when it came to winning basketball. Lakers? Ok, 12 years after their dynasty started. And I like how you use the Pacers, as if one of Kobe’s titles didn’t come against that vaunted team from Indiana, led by a glorified Ray Allen.
And Jordan has 000.000000000000000000000 titles without Phil. Yes, the master at mind fucking players into playing well.
If it’s all about having the most titles, why isn’t Bill Russell the greatest ever? If it’s about points, why not Wilt? What has Jordan done that nobody else ever has? I’ve never heard an argument that actually shows Jordan is the best ever.
El Rey
31. May, 2010
This is easy — it’s Jordan.
It’s not Kobe’s fault, but look at who he’s had to go through:
Pacers at the end of Miller Time (with a huge assist to the choke job by the Blazers)
The Sixers were easily the worst finals team I’ve ever seen.
Did those Nets teams excite anyone?
Then he gets waxed by the flukiest NBA champ in the Stern era, the Pistons, because he and Shaq hated each other.
Waxed by the Celtics because he just played on a soft team, no penalty for that one.
Sure Howard will probably be a HOFer when it’s all said and done, but what else did the Magic really have?
I guess for me I look at going through Magic, Worthy, Drexler, Barkley, Kemp, Payton, Malone and Stockton as being ‘more impressive’ than Miller, Iverson, Kidd and Howard.
Jordan also never lost in the Finals, that’s probably a factor.
There is also the “what if” thing with MJ. If he didn’t retire, would anyone bet against them to hypothetically beat the Rockets in 94 and 95? If Reinsdorf, crums and all the egos in Chi Town didn’t get bruised and they don’t blow the franchise up, it’s a certainty that they would have rolled through the lock out year and the nation would have been spared Knicks vs Spurs.
We will never know, but it’s more than possible Jordan could have run off 9 straight titles.
The unknown brought on by early exits always elevates a persons stature.
If Kurt Cobain didn’t blow his brains out when he did, he could have put out 4 albums that were just awful as shit, and Nirvana could just be looked at as another Nickleback or Puddle of Mudd. But he did, went out on top, so we just assume that there was not only greatness still there, but probably elevated greatness from what we’ve previously seen. Same thing probably applies to Jordan.
As an aside, remember when the OKC series was tied 2-2 and the media was going nuts about Kobe? Whatever happened to his two sprained ankles, bad back and 14 broken fingers….
Stake
31. May, 2010
Jordan never had a supporting cast, and Kobe did? I forgot how impressive Kobe’s supporting cast was: Rick Fox, Brian Shaw, D. George, T. Lue, Mark Madsen, & Luke Walton to name a few. And remember the year they lost to the Pistons? Kobe had two of those “dominant” players that Jordan had to go through. Malone and GP were some of Jordan’s toughest tests, yet they couldn’t win playing with Kobe and Shaq? The game is faster, and the players are stronger in today’s NBA………Remember when Pierce was wheeled off in a wheelchair? What will it be this year? ….you think Frye and Dudley are stroking catch an shoot 3′s right now in some high school gym? Hand down, man down.
El Rey
31. May, 2010
To try and equate Malone and Payton of 04 to the Malone and Payton of 96, 97, & 98, is beyond foolish.
The time gap between MJ at his height and Kobe, isn’t that vast. The time gap between MJs second 3-peat and the beginning of the Lakers 3-peat, was one year.
3d
31. May, 2010
King, you just equated Magic and Worthy of ’91 to their heyday of the early to mid 80s. Get fucking real Jordan played against shitty teams and always had the best team w/ the best coach. And the ‘what if’ game? What if Shaq, Kobe and the Lakers didn’t blow up that franchise? Could we be talking about 9 in a row? 11? 100?
Meerkat
31. May, 2010
During MJ’s years in Chicago, the Eastern Conference was head & shoulders above the Western Conference. Jordan and the Bulls had to earn every ‘W’ they got through out the whole Eastern playoffs. There were no easy wins. Every team in the East had a thug or two to beat MJ up every time he touched the ball … Knicks, Heat, Pacers, Sixers, Magic, Cavs, Hornets.
And don’t forget about the quality of coaches … Pat Riley, Chuck Daly, Larry Brown, Lenny Wilkens, Mike Fratello. MJ didn’t always play the best team in the finals, but getting thru the East was like surviving war.
Also, should MJ have lost any of those league MVP awards to Malone or Barkley? … no way … sportswriters got tired of voting for MJ and he proved it in the Finals. Jordan should of had 8 NBA MVPs.
The personal stats don’t help Kobe either. Especially when Kobe got nothing but open looks when he played with Shaq … MJ was doubled (and tripled against Detroit) his whole career.
goodplaye
31. May, 2010
Jordan leaving to play baseball only hurts him I think. What if…? the bottom line is that he didn’t win 8 or 9 and it doesn’t matter what the reason is.
I do think Jordan is the best ever but one other reason I think its close is because of the era. Those great players were great but after the top couple players on every team those guys were brutal. Kobe doesn’t have the luxury of jumping in the air where nobody else on the court can get to. That can also be looked at as a tribute to Jordan because he did that before anyone else ever did. either way just being an athlete doesn’t get you nearly as far now as it did then.
El Rey
31. May, 2010
I didn’t exactly equate Magic and Worthy to the way they were in their primes, but surely that team was MUCH better than the fucking Pacers, Sixers, Nets and Magic. I mean, get fucking real. The Lakers won the title in 87, 88, and lost in the 89 Finals. It isn’t as though they were 5,6,7 years removed from being the best in the league. Fuck, Magic was the MVP of the league in 1990.
I find it curious that MJ having Phil is some sort of a penalty in D’s eyes. You do realize who coaches Kobe, right?
When Shaq and Kobe started ripping titles, the league was at an extreme low point. The ratings were abysmal, and the product was pedestrian. Now, the NBA ‘is back’ and it remains to be seen if Kobe will rip off titles again, as he only has 1 in the last 8 years.
As far as Jordan “just being an athlete”, really? Am I wrong, or didn’t he win 3 titles by being a guy who killed people with turn around jumpers more so than skying over people and dunking?
Jordan essentially won 6 straight titles, pretty impressive.
Bill Russell
31. May, 2010
I won 8 straight titles, so I am better.
PS – I decided to play basketball during years 4 and 5 during that run. If you want to be the best basketball player ever, you actually have to play basketball. Even me and my gray hair knows that. When Jordan gets a time machine and goes back to play in ’94 and ’95 and wins those tittles, then we’ll say he won 8 in a row.
Math
31. May, 2010
6 is greater than 4.
Stake
31. May, 2010
“During MJ’s years in Chicago, the Eastern Conference was head & shoulders above the Western Conference. Jordan and the Bulls had to earn every ‘W’ they got through out the whole Eastern playoffs.”
-You can make the same argument with Kobe and the Lakers in the Western Conference, and you can’t claim that MJ saw double and triple teams while Kobe had open jumpers, nonsense.
-That Laker team was horrendous minus Magic, and who shut him down? Pippen. Joining Magic and Worthy was: Byron Scott, AC Green, Sam Perkins, a 2nd year Divac, oh and a quality coach in Dunleavy. And when Worthy did play in the finals(missed game 5) his contributions were minimal.
El Rey
31. May, 2010
Can anyone really say for certainty whether or not that Laker team was “horrendous” or not? I know I don’t remember that series, and I bet none of you really do either. First and second graders don’t remember that shit.
Anyways, for now Jordan is better than Kobe. That could easily change, but on Memorial day 2010 to argue Kobe is better than Jordan, is borderline criminal.
Who is “our generations” player? Jordan or Kobe? I mean really, Jordan was gone from the Bulls before any of us could drive a car.
El Rey
31. May, 2010
AC Green and Perkins both played like another decade, it isn’t like they were worthless and old in 91. If I am not mistaken, Green won a ring with LA over Perkins and the Pacers in 2000.
Also, Worthy was not only an All Star in 91, but in 92 as well. Averaging 21 and 20 PPG those years.
Stake
31. May, 2010
I’m sure they weren’t horrendous, and yes, I nor anybody else our age remember that series. By looking at the stats for the games though, Worthy wasn’t a factor and didn’t play game 5, so even though he may have been an mvp he didnt seem to be a factor. You’re right, ya we watched MJ in his prime, but as middle and grade-schoolers I don’t think we can really judge him one way or the other. I mean, dunking and that Jordan poster were the “NBA” and something that was never seen. Kobe is “our generation” and comparing the two are almost apples to oranges…
Meerkat
01. Jun, 2010
Okay, maybe I’m the old man of this bunch … but i actually watched all those … knicks/bulls … playoff games at the bar. After playing 2 hours of hoops, my friends and I would meet up for nachos and coronas and discuss how many points MJ would drop on Starks that night while we wait for tip off.
bbryan
01. Jun, 2010
Kobe’s not the one we should be comparing to MJ, he’s not even the best Laker of all time. That would be one Magic Johnson. You youngins have no sense of history.
/wiggles cane at the youngsters
bbryan
01. Jun, 2010
Just for the sake of arguing I’ll jump into Kobe vs MJ.
MJ won more titles without having a dominant center.
He also averaged more points, rebs, assists, blocks, steals, higher FG% and less turnovers than Kobe during the regular season.
He also averaged more points, rebs, assists, blocks, steals and higher FG% in the playoffs than Kobe.
Kobe has him beat by .1 less turnovers in the playoffs, that’s all he has on MJ. If Kobe gets two more titles than let’s revisit this argument.
Meerkat
01. Jun, 2010
OH-NO!!!
bbryan … you might kicked off a whole new comparison … Kobe vs Magic
Stake
01. Jun, 2010
Best Laker of all-time is a PG!? Aren’t you always dogging on PG’s Bry, claiming the center should get most if not all of the credit for a team’s success?….Kobe v. Magic is the comparison for today, and in 5 years we can revisit Kobe v. MJ…KB 24/8 is the greatest Laker of all-time though.
bbryan
01. Jun, 2010
Magic is a different case Stake, dude was 6′ 9″. I’m not going to blow my wad in the comments section because this is getting it’s own post.